TOKYO, 10 January 1941

On 10th January, 1941, I called upon Mr. Y. Matsuoka, Foreign
Minister.

In the course of our conversation I said that I noticed a great
difference between Japan in 1934 and in 1940. In 1934 I met a
bright, happy, smiling and friendly people. The people were very
different today. I was told that many Japanese would be frightened
today to speak to me.

Mr. M. Yes! That is so, but they will soon get over it. A
renaissance is taking place, and there are always difficulties
with a renaissance, and one difficulty is feeling against
foreigners.

J.G.L. Yes! But the reactions of Japanese against foreigners
appear to be so irregular and sporadic. A week ago there was an
anti-American meeting in Tokyo; in 1940 there were anti-British
meetings; in 1936 anti-Italian meetings when Italy was attacking a
coloured race; and in 1934 anti-German meetings when Hitler had
proclaimed the superiority of the Aryan race and had spoken in
very disparaging terms of Orientals.

Mr. M. I do not believe in anti-Foreign agitation. I repudiated it
last year in a public statement and I stopped the anti-British
agitation by speaking severely to the officers of the Municipality
of Tokyo.

J.G.L. Yes! I heard of your statement, and I am glad to hear your
views. I cannot conceal the fact that Australian feeling towards
Japan now is much less friendly than it was in 1934. One reason
for this is to be found in statements made in Japan with respect
to a New Order in Asia, and the occasional inclusion of Australia
and New Zealand in East Asia for this purpose.

Mr. M. I assure you that in my view and in the view of the
Government East Asia does not include Australia or New Zealand.

Japan has no designs whatever upon either of these countries.

J.G.L. Our civilization is European. It is not an Oriental
civilization. Our own people will determine the character of our
civilization, and are not prepared to have it determined for them
by any other power-even by Great Britain herself, and much less by
an Oriental owner.

I spoke about the relations of Japan to China.

Mr. M. I have no desire that Japan should acquire China. It is
true that many Japanese have so spoken but I and Prince Konoye
[1], though we are in a minority, want to treat China upon a basis
of equality. J.G.L. I said the general view outside of Japan was
that Japan claimed for a particular class of foreigners, viz.

Japanese, monopoly privileges in China under a profession or
pretence of saving China from foreign exploitation.

Mr. M. I agree that it would so appear to many people, but that is
not my idea at all.

J.G.L. I do not understand, if that is the case, why Japan went
into China at all. All the other powers were bound to a policy of
equal opportunities in China, and if that was all that Japan
wanted she had it already; the natural advantages accruing to
Japan by reason of her proximity to China would have given Japan
everything which you now say Japan wants without Japan attacking
China.

Mr. M. Prince Konoye and I are trying to alter the position.

J.G.L. I wonder whether your Excellency is aware of the extent to
which Japan is not only making herself unpopular but actually
becoming a subject of hatred in Asia. I gave the example of what
happened on the day I left Shanghai, when the Japanese removed
certain barricades, which they had placed around a quarter of
Shanghai, and permitted the resumption of traffic. Japanese
private soldiers compelled the Chinese drivers of motor buses to
kneel before them in the street and bow, in the presence of large
numbers of Chinese. I said that such actions brought about a black
hatred of Japan. I added that this was only one instance of such
action, and reminded him of the fable of Aesop concerning the
traveller and his cloak and the contest between the sun and the
wind.

Mr. M. I know this fable, and I agree with what you have said:

that such Japanese actions are very wrong, but many of the private
soldiers are very ignorant.

J.G.L. But they have Officers, and do not the Officers control
them?
Mr. M. Some of the Officers are not very good, but I am trying to
see that the standard is improved.

He repeated that it was not his policy to seek political or
economic domination over China.

J.G.L. I said that if such a policy as this were published and
really adopted, a very different position would arise.

RAIDERS IN PACIFIC

I then spoke of the raiders in the Pacific and made a statement,
of which I left a note, in the following terms:-

'The recent attack on Nauru Island, and on British shipping in
transit to Australia by German vessels is of vital concern to
Australia.

I raise the matter for three reasons:-

(1) The report that some at least of the German vessels carry
Japanese names and ports of registry and, until the actual moment
of attack, Japanese flags.

(2) The report that the German ships are sheltering and
transhipping stores in Japanese waters.

(3) The strong suspicion that German ships going in and out of
Japanese ports are supply ships to the raiders.

As to (1) my information is that one German ship has the name
"Manyo Maru" painted on each bow and on her stern in both English
script and Japanese characters and Tokyo as port of registry; she
has Japanese flags painted on each side abreast the foremast and
on the cover of No. 2 hatch. A second ship until recently bore the
name "Tokyo Maru" and had similar markings, and the funnel was
painted with the O.S.K. [2] markings. When the "Manyo Maru"

shelled Nauru on December 27th and during the attacks on shipping
the Japanese names were not cancelled but the flags were covered
by Nazi colours.

As regards (2) my information is that one raider received supplies
from another at an anchorage in the Marshall Islands about 12th
and 13th December.

As regards (3) unless I have evidence to the contrary I must
suspect that German vessels which during recent weeks have left
Kobe and then returned after some interval have been supplying the
raiders.

I urge that it is contrary to Japan's interest either to encourage
or to permit such activities. If they continue the inevitable
consequence will be British patrols, British examination of
neutral shipping and probably hostilities in the Pacific. But I
cannot believe that a great power like Japan will allow her flag
and her waters to be used in such a manner with the possible
result that the international relations of Japan will really be
determined by the actions of another power.'
After I had concluded my statement Mr. Matsuoka said that there
was no satisfactory evidence that the Marshall Islands had been
used for the purpose stated. He added that he had strong
objections to the use of the Japanese flag and markings by the
German ships, and had stated his objections to the German
Ambassador. [3]

I pointed out that the Germans had deliberately destroyed the
loading apparatus and ships engaged in carrying phosphates from
Nauru. I said that the principal sources for the supply of
phosphates in the Pacific were Angaur Islands (Japanese); Nauru
and Ocean Islands (British) and Makatea Island (French); that all
except Angaur Islands were under British control; that the
destruction of the loading apparatus and the ships at Nauru would
necessarily greatly diminish the available supply of phosphates;

that the result would almost certainly be that Japan would receive
no phosphates whatever from either Nauru, Ocean or Makatea Islands
and that the consequences would be that Japan would have still
less rice next year.

He was impressed by this statement. He believed that Japan was
obtaining phosphates from Nauru.

My information, I told him, was to the effect that Japan was
obtaining phosphates from Ocean Island but not from Nauru at
present, but I said that, in any case, the result must be that the
supply of phosphates from these Islands to Japan would be
certainly diminished and almost certainly entirely stopped. [4]

J. G. L[ATHAM]