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225 Note by Bruce of Conversation with Evatt

[LONDON], 16 June 1943

Evatt rang me up at about 10. o'clock this morning on the
telephone [1] and was insultingly rude to me with regard to my
having asked Dr. Coombs to come and see me at 10.15 before the
meeting with regard to Post-War Commercial Policy. What he said
was that he would not tolerate my interfering in matters he was
conducting and that I had no business to have asked Coombs to come
and see me.

I replied to him over the telephone that he was being insultingly
rude, and I suggested it would be a little more appropriate if he
had anything to say to me that he should do it personally and not
over the telephone. At this stage of the conversation the
telephone went off. I subsequently sent a message that I wanted to
see him and went up to Grosvenor House at 12 noon. I was shown
into a room into which Evatt came about 2 or 3 minutes after. When
he came in he asked me to sit down, but I replied that I did not
propose to do so as I had merely come to tell him that I regarded
what he had said over the telephone as insultingly rude and I was
not prepared to allow anyone to speak to me as he had. To this
Evatt said that I had already said over the telephone that he was
insultingly rude; that he was very angry at what I had done.

I said that what I had done did not even enter into the picture,
it was his manner of dealing with it. The only point was that I
was not prepared to continue personal relations with him if he
behaved in that manner and had merely come to tell him so, and to
add that while I was prepared to give him any assistance in my
power it must be on an entirely impersonal basis. I was adopting
this attitude because our personal relations were a matter of no
importance in view of the great task we were both engaged upon. I
said, however, there was one point I must clear up and that was
whether anyone else was present in the room when he had spoken to
me in the morning, as if anyone was present I would have to send
for that person and make clear exactly what my attitude was.

Evatt's reply was that there was no one present and it was just as
if he had been talking to me in that room.

A somewhat humorous episode then occurred by my adding that he had
made the matter worse by his childish attitude of hanging up the
receiver. To this he replied that he had done nothing of the sort,
and he thought I had. I immediately said that I must apologise for
having suggested that he had done anything so stupid and I did so
quite unreservedly.

I then added, while I was prepared to give him any assistance in
my power I must ask that he would not make the position more
difficult by offensive outbursts.

At this stage Evatt proceeded to say somewhat grudgingly that he
was sorry that in the heat of the moment he had gone quite as far
as he had on the telephone.

To this I said that completely altered the position and I went
over and shut the door and said I was now prepared to sit down and
discuss with him what was the trouble.

Evatt said that he greatly resented my sending for Coombs behind
his back and interfering in matters that the Government had
entrusted to him to handle.

I replied that I had done nothing of the sort. That I had
suggested to Coombs he should come and see me this morning before
he went to the United Kingdom meeting on Post-War Commercial
Policy. My only object in doing so was to suggest to Coombs that
he should insist on the United Kingdom outlining their thoughts on
the matter and not allow the United Kingdom to put the Dominions
in the position of having to put their views first. I said that
probably any discussion on the subject of the meeting with the
United Kingdom would have been confined to one or two minutes as
my main desire to see Coombs was to learn from him what had taken
place at Hot Springs with regard to the Food Conference. I also
said that if it had not been for the shortness of time and the
fact that he, Evatt, must have been very exhausted by his long air
trip, I would probably have suggested that we should have had a
full discussion between Evatt, Coombs and myself, before Coombs
went to the Conference, because there was a considerable amount of
background that I would have been able to give them.

Evatt's reply to this was that in all these matters that he was
dealing with his authority must be maintained, and my cutting into
the picture would tend to undermine it. This was a clear
indication that what he is suffering from is an inferiority
complex and is afraid that in some way his people will get the
impression that I am really the person responsible for guiding
them and not Evatt himself This particular episode was disposed of
by my saying that I had not the slightest desire to interfere in
any way with what he, Evatt, was doing but my only desire was to
help in any way I could. I added, however, that it was very
difficult to help if there was any suspicion in his mind as to
what my attitude was. It was therefore desirable that I should
define to him exactly where I stood. I did this by saying that my
loyalty was to the Government in Australia and particularly to the
Prime Minister, for whom I had the highest personal regard.

I said that in all matters I would do everything I could to help,
but that if I disagreed with the line the Government was taking I
would not hesitate to say so and would do this by cabling
personally to the Prime Minister. Even if my views were not
acceptable to the Government, I would still continue to do
everything in my power to implement their policy up to the point
where my disagreement was so profound that I did not feel I could
conscientiously give my best service to them, in which case I
would immediately tender my resignation to the Prime Minister.

I stressed to Evatt that I had very few virtues, but loyalty
happened to be one of them and he need never have any fear that I
would do anything behind his back or that of the Government, but
would frankly say what was in my mind if I were in disagreement.

Evatt strangely enough said he accepted that as being my position
and said he had so informed the Government when he returned to
Australia last year, as he had felt I had supported him in every
way after the first few days. I asked him what he meant by saying
'after the first few days' and he replied that when he first
arrived he felt that I resented his presence here as undermining
my position and that I had not been in complete accord with the
Government policy with regard to the Pacific.

I told him there was not the slightest ground for the idea that I
resented his presence here; that I had no feeling on the matter
whatever, and so far as the policy in the Pacific was concerned he
was quite wrong, because I had never changed my views with regard
to it in any way.

This point was left on that basis, and I certainly did not get
from Evatt any clear statement as to what grounds he had for
basing the idea that I had at any time, even in the first few days
of his last visit, done anything save loyally support him in what
he was trying to do.

At this stage of the conversation he came back to the point of how
we were to work together and I reiterated that my only desire was
to be helpful, but that if we were to succeed he must restrain his
temperament as I would not tolerate rudeness.

Evatt's reply to this was that I had a considerable power of being
offensive myself
I said that I was not very conscious of that power but if I had
got it I would certainly not exercise it by being rude. To this
Evatt replied that possibly I was not aware of when I was being
offensive and I have a certain suspicion he may have some
justification there although the offensiveness would be made
almost more offensive by being exercised with an infuriating

The final point we came to was that I said to Evatt that when I
had discovered he had not hung up the telephone to end the
conversation, as I imagined, I had apologised to him for having
entertained the suspicion of his having behaved in so stupid and
childish a way. I pointed out that he had apparently harboured the
same idea about me, but I had not yet heard him apologise for
having had such a thought.

This I believe he did not see at all and his line was rather to
argue that it would have been a perfectly natural thing to do to
hang up the telephone. This, however, was only a rather amusing
episode at the end.

The sum total of the conversation was that I think we have
considerably cleared the air and I do not think I will have any
further grounds for complaint of Evatt's being offensive to me

Towards the end of the conversation Evatt asked me whether I had
got my information as to the conclusion of the arrangement with
regard to aeroplanes for the R.A.A.F. from a personal telegram the
Prime Minister had sent him, Evatt. [2]

I said I had not, and I had seen no personal telegram from the
Prime Minister dealing with this subject. I told him I had got my
information from the Chiefs of Staff Organisation, that I had seen
nothing in writing with regard to it and, when I put the question
to him as to whether he had arrived at a satisfactory arrangement,
I was not at all certain that my information that he had was

Evatt then asked me what was the position with regard to personal
telegrams coming to him and I said that I was under the impression
that any telegram sent by the Prime Minister or Member of the
Government to him, Evatt, which was marked 'personal' would be
sent direct to him; that there would be no distribution of it and
that Duffy, at Australia House, would be the only person who would
know of its contents. This I said, however, that I would check up
and if it were not so I would see that instructions to that effect
were given. [3] I said with regard to all other telegrams that
came through the people under my control I would see them all,
although if they were personal ones I would probably take no
notice of them.


1 Evatt had arrived in London from the United States the previous

2 This appears to be a reference to the cablegram cited in
Document 222, note 7.

3 In an addendum to this note Bruce recorded that Duffy had
confirmed Bruce's understanding of the way in which personal
cablegrams for Evatt were handled.

[AA:M100, JUNE 1943]
Last Updated: 11 September 2013
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